Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Wilson Ikeda
My point of view:

- Donations or funding: why not? It is something that need a deeply
analysis? why not just do it and see what happens?

- And like SpringSource i think that child projects like Testify,
Tapestry-Cayenne should be (if possible) on the Tapestry site and deeply
integrated with it (being part of the framework and not like a second class
option that if you want to use it : "another thing to learn how to use"),
from a marketing aspect of view (like Rod Johnson did with SpringSource) the
more integrated solutions the framework have it will be more appealing to
companies because it "could means" fast development, less code and more
automation by the framework to do the basic requirement for an enterprise
app: authentication, transaction management etc..

I do believe that the guys that succeed and got (lots of) money from their
work did on an very active or agressive way (Rod?), is not all about money
but what they were able to achieve with the money they get: expand, hire
developers, they did a .net version, acquire groovy and grails g2one, built
a custom tomcat, a custom eclipse etc...

Just my 2 cents.

On 2/24/10 8:26 PM, "[hidden email]"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Howard [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
>>>> An: [hidden email]
>>>> Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
>>>>
>>>> Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
>>>> envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
>>>> like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
>>>> having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
>>>> funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
>>>> on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
>>>> (though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
>>>> all).
>>>> I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
>>>> doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
>>>> when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
>>>> I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
>>>> requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
>>>> some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
>>>> components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
>>>> enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
>>>> this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
>>>> test and distribute them.
>>>> So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
>>>> help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
>>>> production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]




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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Howard Lewis Ship
One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
non-starters.
I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".

Some days I fantasize about just moving the code base up to GitHub and
stripping "Apache" from the name.  But that adds its own set of
problems, and the "cachet" of being an Apache project perhaps
outweighs the convenience of being free from (the admittedly minimal)
oversight and bureaucracy of Apache.  Here, too, I have Clojure envy.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Wilson Ikeda <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My point of view:
>
> - Donations or funding: why not? It is something that need a deeply
> analysis? why not just do it and see what happens?
>
> - And like SpringSource i think that child projects like Testify,
> Tapestry-Cayenne should be (if possible) on the Tapestry site and deeply
> integrated with it (being part of the framework and not like a second class
> option that if you want to use it : "another thing to learn how to use"),
> from a marketing aspect of view (like Rod Johnson did with SpringSource) the
> more integrated solutions the framework have it will be more appealing to
> companies because it "could means" fast development, less code and more
> automation by the framework to do the basic requirement for an enterprise
> app: authentication, transaction management etc..
>
> I do believe that the guys that succeed and got (lots of) money from their
> work did on an very active or agressive way (Rod?), is not all about money
> but what they were able to achieve with the money they get: expand, hire
> developers, they did a .net version, acquire groovy and grails g2one, built
> a custom tomcat, a custom eclipse etc...
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> On 2/24/10 8:26 PM, "[hidden email]"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>> Von: Howard [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>> Gesendet: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:15 PM
>>>>> An: [hidden email]
>>>>> Betreff: [Tapestry Central] March of Progress
>>>>>
>>>>> Or should that be "Late February of Progress". I have to say I'm a bit
>>>>> envious right now of Rich Hickey ... I can see that he's continuing on
>>>>> like a steam roller, extending and improving Clojure. I guess he's
>>>>> having some success in generating Research and Design budget from
>>>>> funding companies. I can see, following his threads, that he's working
>>>>> on yet more concurrency metaphors for Clojure, which is a good thing
>>>>> (though eventually there'll need to be a big book just to describe them
>>>>> all).
>>>>> I'm on a different track, in that I fund Tapestry out of pocket while
>>>>> doing training and project work. In some cases, those merge, such as
>>>>> when I add specific features to Tapestry for a specific client.
>>>>> I'm of two minds here: doing project work keeps me grounded in real
>>>>> requirements for Tapestry. I see what works really well, and what needs
>>>>> some polishing. On the other hand, I come up with ideas for new
>>>>> components, improvements, and integrations all the time and barely have
>>>>> enough free time (between clients, ordinary Tapestry maintenance, and
>>>>> this special project) to even document my ideas, never mind implement,
>>>>> test and distribute them.
>>>>> So, should I set up a funding option like Rich's? Well, that wouldn't
>>>>> help my current clients (I'm committed to getting their apps into
>>>>> production), but it may change how I would look for future work.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Posted By Howard to Tapestry Central at 2/22/2010 10:15:00 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



--
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:47:07 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
> that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
> non-starters.
> I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
> Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".

In this case, couldn't we host these projects somewhere else and consider  
them officially approved in Tapestry's website? This could even be applied  
to some projects not written by the commiters, such as tapestry-jpa, as  
long as they meet the same quality criteria used to Tapestry itself.

--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,  
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da  
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Howard Lewis Ship
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:47:07 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
>> that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
>> non-starters.
>> I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
>> Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".
>
> In this case, couldn't we host these projects somewhere else and consider
> them officially approved in Tapestry's website? This could even be applied
> to some projects not written by the commiters, such as tapestry-jpa, as long
> as they meet the same quality criteria used to Tapestry itself.

Quality issues are hard to gauge.

Also, there's something good about having a suite of libraries that
are released on the same schedule with the same version number. Makes
figuring out compatibility much easier (are you listening, Hibernate?)

>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and
> instructor
> Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
> Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



--
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:10:30 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Quality issues are hard to gauge.

I agree. I was thinking about the same quality measures used in Tapestry  
itself: test coverage.

> Also, there's something good about having a suite of libraries that
> are released on the same schedule with the same version number. Makes
> figuring out compatibility much easier (are you listening, Hibernate?)

Of course. :)

--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,  
and instructor
Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da  
Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Wilson Ikeda
In reply to this post by Wilson Ikeda
How many on the list would think that breaking with apache and trying a
radical change (be more like a company, like SpringSource) is something that
should be tried? After all being an Apache project does allow Donations or
Funding directly to a respective project? like Tapestry?
and i do believe that licensing concerns are bad!


> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:47:07 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <[hidden email]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>>> >> One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
>>> >> that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
>>> >> non-starters.
>>> >> I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
>>> >> Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".
>> >
>> > In this case, couldn't we host these projects somewhere else and consider
>> > them officially approved in Tapestry's website? This could even be applied
>> > to some projects not written by the commiters, such as tapestry-jpa, as
>> long
>> > as they meet the same quality criteria used to Tapestry itself.
>
> Quality issues are hard to gauge.
>
> Also, there's something good about having a suite of libraries that
> are released on the same schedule with the same version number. Makes
> figuring out compatibility much easier (are you listening, Hibernate?)
>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
>> > Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, >>
and

>> > instructor
>> > Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
>> > Informação Ltda.
>> > http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> >
>> >


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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Ben Gidley
Administrator
I think being an Apache project is really useful for 'selling' tapestry into
a corporate client. They have heard of Apache and that helps a lot.

People have managed to build commercial communities around Apache projects -
good examples are Active MQ, Maven (via Sonatype) and Geronimo. It may help
to have a group of people actively pushing Tapestry (like Spring Source) and
supporting it - but it isn't quite the same as 'infrastructure' type
components like a MQ, J2EE container or even Spring which is now billing
itself as a complete platform.

A tapestry-hub may work - you could spin up a site with something like
Gitorious (though it would be better to have one in tapestry!!). It would
need a good wiki and then it could become the home of tapestry.

If people are interested I may be able to help and may even be able to get
some hosting sponsored (no guarentees) which would let us run things.

Ben Gidley

www.gidley.co.uk
[hidden email]


On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:24 AM, Wilson Ikeda <[hidden email]>wrote:

> How many on the list would think that breaking with apache and trying a
> radical change (be more like a company, like SpringSource) is something
> that
> should be tried? After all being an Apache project does allow Donations or
> Funding directly to a respective project? like Tapestry?
> and i do believe that licensing concerns are bad!
>
>
> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:56 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:47:07 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship <
> [hidden email]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >>> >> One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
> >>> >> that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
> >>> >> non-starters.
> >>> >> I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
> >>> >> Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".
> >> >
> >> > In this case, couldn't we host these projects somewhere else and
> consider
> >> > them officially approved in Tapestry's website? This could even be
> applied
> >> > to some projects not written by the commiters, such as tapestry-jpa,
> as
> >> long
> >> > as they meet the same quality criteria used to Tapestry itself.
> >
> > Quality issues are hard to gauge.
> >
> > Also, there's something good about having a suite of libraries that
> > are released on the same schedule with the same version number. Makes
> > figuring out compatibility much easier (are you listening, Hibernate?)
> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> >> > Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant,
> developer, >>
> and
> >> > instructor
> >> > Owner, software architect and developer, Ars Machina Tecnologia da
> >> > Informação Ltda.
> >> > http://www.arsmachina.com.br
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> >
> >> >
>
>
>
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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Ulrich Stärk-4
In reply to this post by Howard Lewis Ship
On 24.02.2010 23:47 schrieb Howard Lewis Ship:
> One of the challenges of running Tapestry as an Apache project is
> that, due to licensing concerns, a lot of the integrations are
> non-starters.
> I keep expecting someone to say "Hey, You can't integrate with
> Hibernate!  It's LGPL!".

I thought the consensus here was that linking to LGPL'ed work from an optional module is OK with ASF
policies. So I don't expect for anyone to complain about the tapestry-hibernate module. A
tapestry-jpa module wouldn't have any problems, though :).

>
> Some days I fantasize about just moving the code base up to GitHub and
> stripping "Apache" from the name.  But that adds its own set of
> problems, and the "cachet" of being an Apache project perhaps
> outweighs the convenience of being free from (the admittedly minimal)
> oversight and bureaucracy of Apache.  Here, too, I have Clojure envy.

A project is not just about a source repository. We'd still want to have a maven repository, CI
server, bugtracker, webserver, mailing lists, ... GitHub just doesn't provide that (apart from it
being inaccessible quite often). Being an Apache project provides us with all that and in addition
protects us from legal actions from third parties (and of course there is the prestige :)) - at the
cost of stricter license policies and some bureaucracy. This bureaucracy and those processes have
put forth some high quality software products that are leaders in their respective areas so I feel
they can't be that bad.

Just my thoughts.

Uli

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Ulrich Stärk-4
In reply to this post by Ben Gidley
On 25.02.2010 09:41 schrieb Ben Gidley:
> I think being an Apache project is really useful for 'selling' tapestry into
> a corporate client. They have heard of Apache and that helps a lot.

Not only that. It also provides us with a very good infrastructure and protects us from legal
actions against the developers. In addition, the bureaucracy and processes imposed on us from the
ASF have put forth some very succesful projects so I guess they can't be that bad.

>
> People have managed to build commercial communities around Apache projects -
> good examples are Active MQ, Maven (via Sonatype) and Geronimo. It may help
> to have a group of people actively pushing Tapestry (like Spring Source) and
> supporting it - but it isn't quite the same as 'infrastructure' type
> components like a MQ, J2EE container or even Spring which is now billing
> itself as a complete platform.

Indeed. And it has failed before for Tapestry. Remember the Tapestry Support Network?

>
> A tapestry-hub may work - you could spin up a site with something like
> Gitorious (though it would be better to have one in tapestry!!). It would
> need a good wiki and then it could become the home of tapestry.

I'd rather leave the home of Tapestry at Apache.

>
> If people are interested I may be able to help and may even be able to get
> some hosting sponsored (no guarentees) which would let us run things.

I still don't see what the purpose of such a site should be. I personally don't want Tapestry to be
developed somewhere else then at Apache - for various reasons. And before there is no plan on what
to do on an additional site, I'm against it. Tapestry really can't use another stale site without a
real purpose. I'd rather people invest their energy in helping write documenatation, fix bugs, add
features and most important evangelize Tapestry.

Uli

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

kaosko
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:22 AM, Ulrich Stärk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I still don't see what the purpose of such a site should be. I personally
> don't want Tapestry to be developed somewhere else then at Apache - for
> various reasons. And before there is no plan on what to do on an additional
> site, I'm against it. Tapestry really can't use another stale site without a
> real purpose. I'd rather people invest their energy in helping write
> documenatation, fix bugs, add features and most important evangelize
> Tapestry.

Couldn't agree more.

Kalle

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Re: users Digest 24 Feb 2010 11:26:55 -0000 Issue 4018

Piero Sartini-3
In reply to this post by Ulrich Stärk-4
> I'd rather leave the home of Tapestry at Apache.

+1. Leave Tapestry at Apache - everything else would just create
problems about licensing and maybe even hold back contributors.

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